Tuesday, December 18, 2007

Baptist drop-out vs. Mormon priest

Religious battle for the Oval Office

Will the real Republican candidate please stand up? It surely can’t be drag queen Giuliani or “Bomb, Bomb Iran” McCain. Fred Thompson’s act as a candidate is not very convincing, either. Thompson did not even make the Delaware primary ballot; he failed to locate even 500 registered Republicans who wanted him on the ticket.

Perhaps the real candidate is Mitt Romney. Sure, Romney is a slick corporate thug that should never be trusted with the presidency – but that’s just the sort of candidate Republican Party leaders want.

Now Mike Huckabee is finally getting some press. The former governor and Baptist pastor is everything conservatives say they want: anti-abortion, anti-immigration and anti-homosexual. Huckabee claims that “nothing in our society matters more” than heterosexual marriage.

Of course he is sold out to all the usual Republican lobbies. He wants to protect gun-makers from lawsuits, he scoffs at the idea that all Americans need healthcare, and he wants to dump more dollars into Iraq and other wars. Sounds like a perfect Republican candidate!

Yet Huckabee has been rejected by his own. Pat Robertson chose to endorse the drag queen instead of the Baptist pastor, revealing that politics are really more important to him than faith. Huckabee is gaining popularity now in spite of the snub.

Huckabee’s rise to the top may be short-lived. With public notice comes public scrutiny, and Huckabee just cannot pass muster. Already his campaign staff has had to defend the preacher’s repeated false claim of being “the only guy on that stage with a theology degree.” Turns out, Huckabee has no theology degree either. He dropped out of seminary after only one year.

Huckabee is also taking some heat for wondering out loud if Mormonism holds that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Mormon presidential candidate Mitt Romney and his followers characterize the comment as a religious smear tactic.

While I am hardly a Huckabee fan, I have to defend the preacher-turned-politician on this issue. Huckabee may have lied about his education, but it hardly takes a theology degree to perform a Google search. The official Latter Day Saints (LDS) website states “Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer's older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)”

As usual, Christians are asking the wrong question. A church’s theology on Satan is not a major criterion for inclusion beneath the Christian umbrella. The question is not what they do with Satan, but rather what they do with Jesus. Nearly everyone in the world believes that Jesus existed and was a good guy. Even Muslims accord him the status of prophet. The defining point of Christianity, however, is a belief that Jesus is in fact fully God.

Romney said in his carefully-crafted religion speech that Jesus is the savior of the world, hoping Christians would breathe a sigh of relief. However, there is an important theological distinction between the LDS church and those that are considered Christian churches. The LDS Church does not teach that Jesus is the eternal God. This is why Huckabee’s church and mine both consider the Mormon church to be a cult, not a Christian denomination.

You see, it is not enough to like or respect Jesus. According to the basic tenants of Christianity followed by every Christian church from the Southern Baptists to the Roman Catholics, Jesus is the eternal God who created the Universe. People who cannot agree with this statement are simply not Christians. They may be nice people. They may be intelligent, moral, strong, or even presidential. But they are not Christians.

According to LDS theology, Jesus was a created being who became God. Likewise, LDS men claim to be passing through mortal bodies on their way to becoming Gods. What we should be asking Romney is, “Do you consider Jesus God?” or even “Do you consider yourself God?”

As in Muslim theology, Mormons teach that women can only be saved through their husbands, not through faith in Christ. The LDS church no longer endorses polygamy – and yet, LDS writings claim that Jesus Christ himself was polygamous. If Christians were scandalized by Jesus’s fictional marriage to Mary Magdalene in“The Da Vinci Code,” how much more should we recoil from the Mormon claim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany and her sister Martha all at the same time?

Mitt Romney would like for us to believe he is unaware of such teachings, as if he were just a lay member of the LDS church. What voters must understand is that the LDS church has no lay members. Every male who joins becomes a priest of Aaron, and with any sort of time and devotion, moves right on up the ecclesiastical ladder. Mitt Romney has, in fact, served as a foreign missionary, a bishop, and the Stake President of his region.

As Stake President, Mitt Romney commanded hundreds --maybe thousands -- of Mormons under his charge. (No one really knows, since this information has been kept from public view, as have Huckabee’s sermons.) Stake presidents sit in judgment and determine who should be excommunicated for failing to live up to LDS standards. The position is somewhat analogous to that of a Catholic Archbishop.

Mitt Romney certainly knows what the LDS Church teaches – including the bit about women having no salvation apart from husbands – because he was responsible for making sure that all those members in his care followed the teachings.

When John F. Kennedy gave his famous speech on religion, he quipped, “I am a presidential candidate who happens to be Catholic.” Romney sought to give a similar vague answer, shrugging off his Mormon beliefs as if they were coincidental, like being left-handed. But Romney is not a barely-practicing LDS member by accident of birth. Romney wants to be the first Mormon high priest in the White House.

Nowhere in our Constitution is it written that presidential candidates must be professing Christians. In fact, Article VI prohibits using a religious test as qualification for any office. In other words, it is perfectly constitutional to put a Mormon or a Muslim or an atheist on the ballot. The Constitution agrees with Mitt Romney that "one's faith should be no barrier to the right to vote, the right to run for office, nor the right to hold office."

What Romney implies is that we have no right to consider his religion when we go to the polls. This is patently false. It is the government, not the voters, who are prohibited from employing a religious test. Our own religious freedom mandates that we have the right to bring our personal convictions into the polling booth. We can vote against a candidate just because he is a Mormon or a Muslim or an atheist. That’s the First Amendment, Mitt, and neither your good looks nor your clever manipulation of words will wrest it from us.

48 comments:

Dorcas (aka SingingOwl) said...

How can someone stating what IS clearly a Mormon doctrine be "smear tactics?" Only because NR knows that the rest of us will likely find that belief a little to weird to handle. As with practically every other Mormon tenet, once one knows what they are. Huckabee versus Romney. The idea makes me a littl green.

Marvin L. Henry said...

You make a good case for why Mormons not Christians, but this article makes a good case for why they are.

Anonymous said...

It bothers be that people continue to pass off personal opinions as church doctrine.

"The LDS church does not teach that Jesus is the eternal God."

The LDS church DOES teach that is the Eternal God. It also teaches that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one Eternal God. It is taught clearly in the Book of Mormon (Alma 11: 44, 2 Ne. 26: 12)

"Mormons teach that women can only be saved through their husbands, not through faith in Christ"

That is NOT true. ALL MEN AND WOMEN are saved through faith in Christ. That is what the church teaches.

"LDS writings claim that Jesus Christ himself was polygamous"

Again, that is NOT true. There have been members of the church who have speculated that Jesus was married or that he had multiple wives, but these are individual opinions and in no way church doctrine.

"women having no salvation apart from husbands"

NOT TRUE. It is true that the church believes that the highest degree of heaven is only attained by man and woman together (1 Cor. 11: 11). Both man and woman need each other.

It is true that the doctrines of the LDS church concerning Jesus Christ differ from some of those of other faiths.
The church teaches that "Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day".
The church does not believe in the concept of the trinity. The trinity is not taught in the Bible nor the Book of Mormon, it is found in the Nicene Creed, a man made declaration of faith.

Anonymous said...

It's amazing that in this day and time garbage like the article by Ms. Babb regarding Huckabee and Romney could be viewed as anything other than subjective politically motivated trash. If she had at least taken the time to seriously research the information in the pursuit of truth, her piece would have been completely different. Instead, what little research if any was done to simply try to find information to justify the positions that she already held and any unreliable source would do as long as it backed up her position.

What I find even more amazing after her abusive attack on these two men is that on her blog she welcomes visitors to post messages and then adds that any "abusive" messages will be deleted.

Her world must be a great place to live if you are completely out of your mind. Glad I'm not there.

For the purposes of full disclosure, I am a former Baptist that converted to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so I am offended on all levels.

I work with real columnist every day and this is simply a dishonest story by a dishonest wannabe columnist that belongs in a personal blog rather than a newspaper that purports to have any real news credibility.

Anonymous said...

Useful information regarding Mormons and why this ladies article is just full of misinformation.

FOXNews.com compiled a list of 21 questions representing some widely held beliefs and misconceptions about Mormonism and posed them to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Here are the questions and how the Church responded:

Q: Why do some call the Church a cult?

A: For the most part, this seems to stem from a lack of understanding about the Church and its core doctrines and beliefs. Under those circumstances it is too easy to label a religion or other organization that is not well-known with an inflammatory term like 'cult.' Famed scholar of religion Martin Marty has said a cult means a church you don't personally happen to like. We don't believe any organization should be subjected to a label that has come to be as pejorative as that one.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Q: Does the Church believe in the divinity of Jesus?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Q: Does the Church believe that God is a physical being?

A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.

Q: If so, does the Church believe that God lives on a planet named Kolob?

A: 'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.

Q: Where is the planet Kolob? What significance does the planet have to Mormons?

A: 'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that God and Mary had physical sex to conceive Jesus?

A: The Church does not claim to know how Jesus was conceived but believes the Bible and Book of Mormon references to Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe Jesus appeared in North America after his crucifixion and resurrection?

A: The appearance of Jesus in the Western Hemisphere shortly after his resurrection is described in the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe that when Christ told his disciples in the Bible He had other 'sheep' who should receive his message he was referring to those people in the Western Hemisphere.

Q: If so, when did this happen? And under what circumstances?

A: The appearance of Jesus in the Western Hemisphere shortly after his resurrection is described in the Book of Mormon. Mormons believe that when Christ told his disciples in the Bible He had other 'sheep' who should receive his message he was referring to those people in the Western Hemisphere.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become "gods and goddesses" after death?

A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being 'joint heirs with Christ' reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that women can only gain access to heaven with a special pass or codewords?

A: No.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that women must serve men on both Earth and in heaven?

A: Absolutely not. Mormons believe that women and men are complete equals before God and in relation to the blessings available in the Church.

Q: Is there such a thing as Mormon "underwear"? if so, are all Mormons required to wear it? What does it symbolize?

A: Like members of many religious faiths, Latter-day Saints wear religious clothing. But members of other faiths — typically those involved in permanent pastoral ministries or religious services — usually wear religious garments as outer ceremonial vestments or symbols of recognition. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, garments are worn beneath street clothing as a personal and private reminder of commitments to God.

Garments are considered sacred by Church members and are not regarded as a topic for casual conversation.

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe in the existence of another physical planet or planets, where Mormons will "rule" after their death and ascension?

A: No.

Q: What specifically does the Mormon Church say about African-Americans and Native Americans?

A: Mormons believe that all mankind are sons and daughters of God and should be loved and respected as such. The blessings of the gospel are available to all.

Q: What are or were the "Golden Plates"?

A: The Book of Mormon was translated by Joseph Smith from records made on plates of gold, similar to metal plates that have been found in other ancient cultures. It contained a history of peoples in the Western Hemisphere including an appearance by the Savior to them. As such, the Book of Mormon is considered a second testimony of Jesus Christ.

Q: Are consumption of alcohol and tobacco prohibited or simply discouraged?

A: It is against the teachings of the Church to use alcohol and tobacco or to drink tea and coffee.

Q: Does the Church also ban the consumption of "hot drinks"? And does that apply specifically to caffeinated drinks?

A: It is against the teachings of the Church to use alcohol and tobacco or to drink tea and coffee.

Q: Why do Mormons go from door to door?

A: Christ admonished his disciples to take the gospel to the world. The Church follows that admonition and sends missionaries throughout the world.

Q: What do the Mormons believe about the family?

A: Mormons believe that the family is the foundation for this life and the life to come.

Q: Can someone who may never marry in life have eternal marriage?

A: God will not withhold blessings from any of his children who may not have the opportunity to marry in this life.

Anonymous said...

If you want to really see what the Church teaches, then you should go to the source.

Here are a few resources for you.

www.mormon.org

www.lds.org

Jeannie Babb said...

mlh, you may have missed this line in the article: "...both sides are using the same terms to describe different things."

Our definition of "Christian" is not the same. So the question becomes, "Who gets to define Christianity?"

Some Mormons assert that Mormonism does teach that Jesus is God. Again, I don't think you mean the same thing by "God" that I mean by "God." When I say/write/type "God" I am talking about THE God -- or to put it another way, the ONE and ONLY GOD. Christianity teaches that there is only one God, one Creator, though that God exists in three persons.

From what I can tell, the LDS church has been mainstreaming since the 1970's, so that Mormon beliefs sound more and more like Christian beliefs. But until Mormon heresies are addressed and recanted, Christians cannot consider the LDS church a Christian denomination.

According to every major Christian denomination, inclusion in the Christian community requires a belief that Jesus Christ is God. Not merely the Son of God, or a man who turned into God, or God, Jr., but the actual eternal God who created the universe ex nihilo.

Mormons hem-haw around this distinction by making statements that are similar but misleading, just as Romney did in his faith speech. He invoked Jesus as Savior (but not God), knowing that most Christians in the US lack the background and education to recognize that he was skirting the issue.

We know that "Jesus Christ" is in the name of your church. We know you believe that he lived, died, and rose again. According to every major creed, that's not all there is to Christianity.

My aim in writing this piece is not to attack Mormons. I absolutely support your right to believe what you believe and to live whatever you believe so long as it hurts no one else. You have the right to define yourselves however you like, including calling yourselves Christians.

However, Christians also have the right to define ourselves. We have the right to defend themselves from those who would use our name disingenuously.

For 1700 years, Christians have defined themselves as people who believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are consubstantial. Sorry to be exclusivist, but this belief is key to what being a Christian is.

It's fine that your beliefs differ from mine. But let's be entirely honest about what those beliefs are. As in the Fox News FAQ, the question "Does the Church believe in the divinity of Jesus?" is a yes/no question. It is telling that the LDS Church answered the question by making a string of related statements which neither confirm nor deny.

Mitt Romney is a Mormon, not a Christian. He has every right to run for president, and I hope that he runs a good race. Journalists also have the right to point out that Romney is twisting the facts when he invokes Article VI of the Constitution to suggest that we cannot consider his faith as one of the reasons to vote for or against him.

If Mitt Romney or any other Mormon would like to become a Christian, there are thousands of Christian pastors all around the country who will welcome you with open arms.

Jeannie Babb Taylor

Jeannie Babb said...

Thanks, Jessica. Here is another excellent site which directly references Mormon sacred writings and articles of faith, comparing them to the Bible.

http://www.carm.org/lds/compare.htm

Anonymous said...

As one who was a Mormon for a while before accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, I can tell you that all Mormon answers to crucial religious questions are carefully worded so as to avoid the plain facts of their beliefs.

And no they do not believe that Christ is God in the flesh. I don't recollect what their exact beliefs about God are, but it is not the God of the Bible.

However, I can say that Mormon men cannot separate church and state. A Mormon in government would tend to compel government programs to comply to Mormon belief systems. This might be good for those who believe in gender hierarchy, but it will not be good for women. Mormons do the equal in thought, but very inequal in practice thing.

David said...

Jeannie:

The problem is that the Mormon theology on the carm.org site isn't what is believed or taught in the Church. A quick look at just the first two on carm site will demonstrate that. Take the supposed Mormon doctrine and go to lds.org or mormon.org and see if that is indeed part of Mormon theology.


Why is it that any website other than the official church website would be considered as accurate? The lds.org site contains all of the scripture, lesson manuals, magazines and conference address for the last 30 years. This site is specifically designed for members of the Church. It's not a PR site or a front.

The carm site is just another anti-Mormon effort.

Anonymous said...

>>> You see, it is not enough to like or respect Jesus.

I agree. A true Christian lives as Christ lived, and shows compassion and love for others. He or she does not tear down faith but builds faith. He or she shows patience and understanding for the good faith and service of other people, even if he or she believes them to be misguided. And he or she leaves it to Jesus Christ Himself to make the final judgment about whether a person's faith is satisfactory to make one a true follower of Christ.

While I'm sure Jeannie Babb Taylor desires very much to be a Christian, and to let the world know it, her comments regarding others who believe in Christ, albeit differently, are anything but Christian in nature. While she and many of her colleagues dismiss Mormonism as "unorthodox" and therefore worthy of derision, they seem to forget that modern "orthodox" Christian practices bear little resemblance to early Christian observances, and that mainstream Christianity has long been subject to the influences of politics and popularity. They also forget that Jesus Christ Himself was unfairly persecuted, convicted and sentenced to die merely for being "unorthodox." Is the scorn of the pharisees any more holy when it comes from a "Christian?"

I hope this is a temporary oversight, and Jeannie Babb Taylor would find it in her heart to give Romney and all Mormons the kindness and decent treatment the Christ of the New Testament expects us to give everyone.

Me from Cali said...

Who gets to define Christianity? The Baptists? The Catholics? I think the bible does a pretty good job. It is replete with the doctrine that whoever accepts Jesus Christ, and follows Him and his Way is of Him and consequently is a 'Christian.' End of story. Mormons, like Catholics, like Baptist are all Christians. Buddhists are NOT Christians. Atheists are NOT Christians. One plus one equals two. It's not rocket science.

Mormons Are Christian said...

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

• Baptism: .

Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. http://www.imj.org.il/eng/exhibitions/2000/christianity/ancientchurch/structure/index.html
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

• The Trinity: .

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration?

The Nicene Creed”s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one."

Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. .

Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God." . The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.

• The Deity of Jesus Christ

Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless. http://www.adherents.com/misc/BarnaPoll.html

• The Cross and Christ’s Atonement: .

The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

• Definition of “Christian”: .

But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.

It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian http://sacred-texts.com/chr/ecf/207/2070037.htm , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:

The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this:

"There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.)

Martin Luther had similar thoughts: "Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,...unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation."

He also wrote: "I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among
those who should have preserved it."

The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.

* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:

The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):


1. Attend Religious Services weekly
2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
3. Believes in life after death
4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
5. Has taught religious education classes
6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
7. Sabbath Observance
8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality

LDS Evangelical
1. 71% 55%
2. 52 28
3. 76 62
4. 100 95
5. 42 28
6. 68 22
7. 67 40
8. 72 56
9. 50 19
10. 65 26
11. 84 35

Anonymous said...

Ms. Taylor,

Your article of 12/18/07 in the Catoosa County News was filled with inaccuracies and falsehoods, including:

Your contention that Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ the eternal God who created the universe. We most certainly do believe that. That truth is clearly taught in the first chapter of the Gospel of John, which we accept as the Word of God.

Women can only be saved through their husbands. Absolutely not true. A woman’s salvation depends first and foremost on the Atonement of Christ and her acceptance of it, which includes striving to keep His commandments and serve Him by serving our brothers and sisters here on the earth. Women cannot have eternal families outside of marriage, but then again neither can men.

LDS writings claim that Jesus Christ himself was polygamous, and that he was married to Mary Magdalene, Mary of Bethany, and her sister Martha. Absolutely not true.

Mitt Romney “commanded hundreds – maybe thousands – of Mormons under his charge.” No stake president “commands” the members of his stake. He provides spiritual and administrative guidance and makes sure things run properly and that the local organizations are staffed and have the resources they need. And he was not “responsible for making sure that all those members in his care followed the teachings.” The principle we follow was articulated very well by Joseph Smith: “I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.”

As for excommunications, no member is ever excommunicated for failing to live up to LDS standards – excommunications actually occur fairly infrequently. A person may be excommunicated for: sexual relations outside of marriage, but usually only if that person has made covenants in the temple; sometimes for conviction of a felony in a court of law, depending on the felony – e.g. murder, which would certainly merit excommunication; polygamy; open and recalcitrant opposition to the church, including teaching false doctrine – but never for “failing to live up to LDS standards.” If that were the case, given our humanness and fallibility, the entire membership of the LDS church would have to be excommunicated. And keep in mind that the church considers excommunication proceedings confidential and never, ever discloses its side of the story – thus anything you hear about why someone was excommunicated is only one piece of the puzzle.

And the part about Jesus and Satan being brothers – that’s a gross distortion of LDS teachings and an “issue” that is only brought up as a stab at our faith, never as an attempt to understand. That’s comparable to saying Mother Theresa and Adolph Hitler were brother and sister (which in a spiritual sense they of course were/are) and leaving it at that.

So while you’re free to decline to vote for Mitt Romney for whatever reason you choose, if you want to be informed on the subject you would do well to ask a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, rather than relying on the vitriolic and spiteful venom spouted by our enemies. You’d be welcome at any time to attend a meeting or even to – GASP! – read all or part of the Book of Mormon and see for yourself why we call it Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

Ann Coulis
Gaithersburg, Maryland

Dorcas (aka SingingOwl) said...

As one who has many Mormon relatives, has read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover (as well as Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price), has attended many meetings, talked with missionaries and home teachers and bishops, I think that if one reads carefully, official LDS sites will contain plenty of information to highlight why they are not considered "Christian" by most denominations. Just be careful to note that words can mean very different things. When I say "Heavenly Father" for example, I mean something quite different that what Mormonism teaches. It sounds the same many times. But the differences between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are vast indeed. And I believe Ms. Babb Taylor is correct in asserting that Romney is being deliberatly misleading and vague.

Martin said...

Just call Mormons "non-traditional christians." and end all the pointless arguments.

Anonymous said...

Yes, there are doctrinal differences between the restored church of Jesus Christ and evolved Christian churches. That isn't the issue.

The key issue is who is doing the Lord's will. The best way to determine this is to look at how they live their lives. People in their respective churches have their choice to follow Jesus or not.

The most basic teaching of Jesus is to love one another.

By this simple test you will know who is a Christian or otherwise.

David said...

Shame on Jeannie Babb Taylor and this paper for allowing such outright lies to be published about the Mormon faith. She calls herself a journalist, yet it is obvious that Jeannie didn't even spend 10 minutes researching the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It is all available online at lds.org -- all of the scriptures, all of the Sunday School curriculum, all of the talks by current leaders of the Church -- yet she ignores it all. Instead, she relies on spurious sources or her own mistaken biases to demonize a Christian faith.

Just let me take one sentence as an example: "As in Muslim theology, Mormons teach that women can only be saved through their husbands, not through faith in Christ." That statement is absolute garbage. I dare Jeannie to find anything from the scriptures or our curriculum (doctrine) that backs her up. It will be impossible, because it is nothing but rubbish. The same could be said about every other derogatory statement.

Jeannie, come live with my Mormon family for a week and see how we teach of Christ, and strive to following His teachings. Come see how we pray to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. Come see how we try to give Christian service to our neighbors and community. Our first article of faith states, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." We absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father. So please, before you trash someone's faith, get at least one of your facts straight.

David Winters
Norcross, GA

Jeannie Babb said...

David, thanks for the invitation, but I am already married. ;-)

We have 6 children also. I'm sure that yours is a wonderful family. I don't doubt that you teach your children about Jesus. What is at issue is WHAT one is teaching about Jesus.

If I began calling myself a Jew, real Jews would complain. I could rightly point out that I worship Yahweh and honor the Pentateuch. Does that make me a Jew as well as a Christian? Can I demand that "Jew" be redefined in order to include Christians, even though those who wear that label are opposed to my inclusion?

Although I feel some kinship to Judaism, I recognize their right to exclude Christians from that label. When they tell me that my understanding of Yahweh is not the same as theirs, and that Christianity is not Judaism Plus, Judaism Continued, or Judaism Grown-Up, I have to respect that.

Christianity has been well-defined for 1700 years. The Nicene Creed is part of it. Joseph Smith's golden tablets are not.

You can be a fabulous person without accepting the Nicene Creed. You can be a moral person without accepting it. You can be a smart person without accepting it. What you cannot be, without accepting the Nicene Creed, is an orthodox Christian. Churches which do not accept the creed are considered "cults" or simply not considered Christians.

Christianity is exclusive. So are most other religions, including LDS. Perhaps Mormons have softened their claim to be THE latter day saints who know THE truth, but I doubt it. If you're just the same as the rest of us, teaching the very same truths -- then why don't you close your church doors and come over and join me this Sunday? There are distinctives -- very strong distinctives -- even though some of you prefer to downplay them and explain them away with fuzzy semantics.

Mormons teach that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are three different gods -- and that people can becomes gods.

Christianity teaches that there is but one God. That's not merely an academic difference.

Respectfully,
Jeannie

Anonymous said...

From Parchment and Pen, a theology blog I'm reprinting some more forthright answers to the question of what is Mormon theology.

"A: Mormons believe Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer, who died for the sins of humankind and rose from the dead on the third day with an immortal body. God, the Father, also has an immortal body.
What this answer—which is accurate as far as it goes—neglects to make explicit is that Mormons understand what it means for Jesus to be “the Son of God” in a way that differs radically from orthodox Christianity. When they say they believe he is “literally” the Son of God, the significance of this qualification will be lost on most people. Mormons believe that God the Father is an immortal Man and that he is the literal father of Jesus Christ “in the flesh,” just as Mary is his literal mother (see below). This is not what orthodox Christianity means when it affirms that Jesus is the Son of God. To us, Christ has existed eternally as the Son of God, personally distinct from the Father yet one and the same God. For us, to affirm that Jesus is the Son of God means to affirm that he is eternally of the same absolute, infinite divine nature as the Father.

It is peculiar that the LDS Church did not directly address the question of the divinity of Jesus. In their view, Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, and yet he is a different God than Elohim, the Father, and will always be subordinate to him. Mormons do not pray to Jesus. In their view, Jesus, and all other human beings, and all angels, existed in the distant past as the spirit offspring of our heavenly parents (God the Father and his wife); Jesus is simply our Elder Brother and the first of God’s children to become a God himself."

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become “gods and goddesses” after death?
A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Frankly, this is an incomplete answer. The official LDS position is indeed that its followers can become gods (and goddesses) after their death (though perhaps long after). According to the LDS doctrinal manual Gospel Principles, those who endure to the end will “become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father.” This means that they will be perfect, possessing all knowledge and wisdom, and be a creator. “They will become gods…and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father” (302). This doctrine is derived primarily from Joseph Smith’s teachings, and is found at least in its basic form in the LDS scripture Doctrine and Covenants (see especially chapter 132).

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe that women can only gain access to heaven with a special pass or codewords?
A: No.

Unfortunately, the question is ambiguous enough that it allows at least one loophole or way of avoiding the issue. Mormonism teaches that there are multiple layers of “heaven,” or multiple heavens (both ways of speaking are used). Women may gain access to the highest, celestial kingdom only by giving her special, secret name that she received when she was “sealed” for eternity in her marriage to her husband in the LDS temple.

More can be read at
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2007/12/18/straight-answers-to-foxs-21-questions-about-the-mormon-church/

Anonymous said...

Romney's Mormonism is not the most important point of his political beliefs. How he reads his belief into his other political agendas is important.

And personally, for many of the reasons stated in this blog, I don't trust the guy.

Anonymous said...

How sad Heavenly Father & Jesus Christ must be to look upon us down on this great earth, talking circles around their names as though we're casually using them like dishwater. We are talking about our Creator (yes Jesus under Heavenly Father's direction)to our brothers and sisters. We are not enemies. The only enemy we have is satan himself, who stirs up our hearts so we'll contend with one another. We're doing him well when we enter into strife.
I believe in Christ. I am a Christian. I am a Mormon. I take no offense when someone points out that I don't follow the Nicene Creed. I don't follow it. Thank you for seeing my point. It was man made, I follow the Savior who told me that I can go to the Father through Him. I'm grateful that He is the final judge and finisher of my faith. I'm grateful to know that there is life after this earth and that families can live together forever. I'm grateful for the promise found in Revelation 3:21. I yearn to sit in a thrown with my Savior and be exalted because I endured. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things;" beautiful promises, gifts that await. Waiting for all that come unto Christ and are perfected in Him...may we all live more like the Savior would have us do, especially during this Christmas season.

Anonymous said...

I will pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, for you to seek the Spirit in your search for truth and knowledge and for you to receive a personal testimony of God's plan of salvation.

Anonymous said...

Everyone please read this debate on Latter-Day Saints place in Christianity.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/mormondebate/

Start at the bottom and read to the top.

btw. if Romney was a baptist, would anyone even know that Huckabee was running?

bygracethrufaith said...

Jeannie,
I agree with you one- believe it or not! Don't know if you've checked out the other blog site, but there's a little action concerning your article on there as well. I'm not too sure that I agree with your confidence in the Nicene Creed that you mentioned above - not saying that it's a bad thing...but I see no need of any other writings or descriptions of what "christianity" should be other than what is found in the Bible. Even if the Nicene Creed is biblically based, Joseph Smith believed that he was biblically based as well. All the clarification that we need concerning God's intention for His creation is found in our Bible - no other writings. There is no need for "new" revelations. Mormons are no more Christian than Muslims are. Christians need to figure that out and get out of the "everyone is going to Heaven in their own way" mentality. It is simply just *not true.*

I also wish those who are upset at these "anti-mormon" sites would realize that there is PLENTY of information located on the LDS official site to show that Mormons are not Christians.

Thanks for a well-written article.

Jeannie Babb said...

Here are a couple of interesting Mormon teachings:

Godhood
"Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term "godhood" denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is." Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Early Christian Deification
"From the second to eighth centuries, the standard Christian term for salvation was theopoiesis or theosis, literally, "being made God," or deification. Such language survived sporadically in the mystical tradition of the West and is still used in Eastern Orthodoxy. LDS doctrines on eternal progression and exaltation to godhood reflect a similar view of salvation." Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Jeannie Babb said...

For the LDS members who denied that women's salvation is dependent on husbands, I'd like to hear what you make of this Erastus Snow teaching:

"No woman will get into the celestial kingdom except her husband receives her."

Sounds straight-forward to me.....

Jeannie Babb Taylor

David said...

And the Apostle Paul said,

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." 1 Cor 14:34

Sounds straight forward to me. (I wonder if it also applies to Blog Churches.)

Perhaps if Christians are allowed say that this verse doesn't mean what it appears to mean, Mormons might be allowed to explain that quotes from Erastus Snow might also need to be analyzed in context and in the era in which they were given.

On the other hand, anyone who really wanted to know what the LDS church has to say about salvation for men and women could easily go to lds.org and see what the Church actually teaches.

Anonymous said...

Black people are not human beings, only white people are. That’s because they’re black, not white. Yellow people, too, are not human beings (well not ‘real’ human beings), because only white people are. You have to have white skin, AND ONLY white skin to be considered a ‘real’ human being. I learned to reason like this from some old history books that I read, and from Amy Babb Taylor. For example, only the religions SHE says are Christian are Christian. It doesn’t matter what other people think or declare even if they do consider themselves to be ‘real’ Christians, just like it doesn’t matter what other people think or declare even if they do consider black people to be ‘real’ human beings. If you don’t have white skin you most clearly can’t be a ‘real’ human being. I mean, like, duh!! So it's pointless to use any so-called logic trying to convince someone that black people are ‘real’ human beings just because they have intelligence, language, walk up right, etc. They are not! I mean it’s as plain and obvious as…well, as black and white. Duh!!
It’s the same thing with the ‘Mormons’ (Latter-day Saints).
The Mormons belong to a church or religious organization they call “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” but they are NOT Christians.
The Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior and Redeemer, and the Way to salvation, but they are NOT Christians.
The Mormons have scriptures (all of them, without any exception) that teach of Christ and His word, but they are NOT Christians.
The Mormons take the sacrament every Sunday to renew their baptismal covenant (when they were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ) which says (asterisks added for emphasis) “O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, **Jesus Christ**, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat **in remembrance of the body of thy Son**, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are **willing to take upon them the name of thy Son**, and **always remember him** and **keep his commandments which he has given them**; that they may always have **his Spirit to be with them**. Amen,” but they are NOT Christians.
I could go on and only, but how thick do you need to be before I can logically and clearly show you that Mormons (a.k.a. Latter-day Saints) are NOT Christians. I mean, like, duh!! And besides, I, too, am the de facto authority, just like Amy Babb Taylor, who gets to determine what’s what and who’s who – logic or no logic.

-- Paul Belfiglio

Anonymous said...

Jeannie said:

For the LDS members who denied that women's salvation is dependent on husbands, I'd like to hear what you make of this Erastus Snow teaching:

"No woman will get into the celestial kingdom except her husband receives her."

Jeannie,

Erastus Snow (as well as all members of the LDS faith)hold womankind in the highest possible regard. He said the following:

…St. Paul, "the man is not without the woman, nor the woman without the man in the Lord." In other words, there can be no God except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, nor ever will be, a God in any other way. I have another description: There never was a God, and there never will be in all eternities, except they are made of these two component parts; a man and a woman; the male and the female.

Erastus Snow, JD 19:270-71

Being informed is essential if you're going to be the best possible journalist you can be. I hope you will inform yourself with the truth about Mormons if you chose to write about us. I respect your religion and hope you will do the same. One of our basic articles of faith states:

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Anonymous said...

"Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven" What is His will?

Would earthly men be allowed "anything" that Heavenly Father didn't have? Wouldn't that automatically exalt them above Him? If there is a man and a wife unit on Earth, wouldn't it stand to reason that in Heaven there's...

If we are all made in God's image, then He saw a lady somewhere before Eve's creation.

I don't think I'd give anyone a gift that I at least didn't know about or have. We usually give the best gifts we can because we know how great they are. Would Heavenly Father be any different?

Mike Day said...

Ms Taylor you are "cherry-picking" among thousands of statements by LDS leaders over almost 200 years, to distort LDS beliefs. Erastus Snow may have made the comment about women's salvation but it is not LDS doctrine.

I can cherry-pick too. For example, "Baptists believe that the US deserved the 9/11 attacks. Jerry Falwell said that God allowed the 9/11 attacks to be successful as a punishment for decadence."

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

But I don't actually believe that Baptists believe we brought the attacks upon ourselves. Nevertheless I can "prove" that you believe it by quoting a leading Baptist pastor out of context. Cherry-picking like this is a shameful tactic.

You and some of the other commentators are correct that pointing out doctrine and differences in our beliefs is not bigotry or persecution. However, accusing LDS of being misleading, deceptive, and lying IS bigotry. You cross the line when you accuse us of hiding our true beliefs when we provide honest answers profess our belief in Jesus Christ the Creator of the universe and the only name by which mankind can be saved.

Jeannie Babb said...

Anonymous, thanks for posting more Erastus Snow nonsense. I think it's amusing that Mormons say I cannot use the teachings of Erastus Snow because they are not Scripture -- and then counter with more words of Erastus Snow.

Anyway, I'm glad you posted this ES quote. It is another clear example of Mormon anthropomorphism (bringing God down to our level.) The Bible clearly states that God is NOT a man. (Numbers 23:19, I Sam 15:29, Hosea 11:9.)

Jesus also made it clear that "flesh and blood" was fundamentally different than "God" when he said to Peter, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Mattew 16:17.) If God is flesh-and-blood, this would make no sense.

I understand why Mormonism requires God to have a wife (or is it wives?) since Mormonism sets God up as a flesh-and-blood male out to populate the universe.

The Christian God is neither human nor male.

Consider the prohibition against idolatry found in the Old Testament:"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth ... " (Deut. 4:15-18; cf. v. 12)

In case the King Jameth loses any readers, the passage above is saying that we must not corrupt ourselves by likening God to any of God's creatures. This is the essence of what's wrong with idolatry (golden calves, etc.) Any image that we attach to God cannot do God justice; it can only cheapen our understanding. Note especially the prohibition against depicting God as male or female in the above passage. God is not male or female. God CREATED male and female.

Jesus told the woman at the well, "God is spirit and those who would worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." The Greek word for spirit is 'pneuma,' which is also used for 'wind' or 'breath.' God does not have a physical body -- no arms, no legs, and certainly no male or female reproductive organs.

We speak of "the arm of God" metaphorically, but this does not mean we believe God has actual arms. If God had a physical body, then it would be impossible for God to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent as Christianity teaches. There are scriptures which depict the arm of God or say that God saw something (as if it were hidden from God before) or that God remembered. Theologians call these "condescensions," meaning that God condescended to describe himself in terms that we humans can relate to. To say that God 'remembered' does not mean that God had actually 'forgotten' and had to be reminded. Likewise, Jewish and Christian theologians alike agree that God does not have arms.

God is invisible (John 1:18, John 6:46, Rom 1:20, Col 1:15, 1 Tim 1:17, 1 Tim 6:16, Heb 11:27, etc.)

This was one purpose of the incarnation, to make God 'visible' in someway to humankind. God had been previously 'seen' as a burning bush, a cloud by day, a fire by night, a man or an angel. These are called theophanies. When we read these passages we understand that God is not actually a shrub or flame, but merely manifesting as something that humankind can see and comprehend. The incarnation is wholly different, as God actually took on human flesh, coming into the world as a newborn baby. If God already has a body (a male body at that!), then the incarnation is rather repetitive and pointless.

But Scripture clearly teaches that God is not a human, and at the incarnation God took on the form of a human:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)

That's what is so special about Christmas! God, our Creator, who envisioned us in these bodies of flesh of blood and spoke us into existance, exists eternally, invisibly, in an incorporeal body. We cannot reach God. We cannot touch God. Yet God made a way to reach us, by taking on the form of a servant, by becoming one of us, by becoming as the least of us -- first as an infant and later, although he was God, he became an outcast, an accused criminal, rejected by his own people, beaten and lashed and crucified.

On that cross, Jesus born our sins. What Christ did there is sufficient for my salvation, and yours, and indeed that of every human being who will ever be born. No special codewords, holy underpants, secret ceremonies, or eternal marriage vows are required. Jesus only asks that we believe.

Paul warned us about people would come preaching "another gospel." (Gal 1:8-9.) That is exactly what The Book of Mormon is. Even the subtitle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ", gives it away.

Jeannie Babb Taylor

Jeannie Babb said...

Paul Belfiglio, you crack me up. Your post makes no sense, but you probably enjoyed making those racist comments.

Jeannie Babb Taylor

Anonymous said...

Jeannie,

I'm able to get into scripture bash with you using nothing more than the Holy Bible and come out looking good about an "anthropomorphic" God. I choose not to because it leads to contention in most cases.

The Bible is subject to interpretation which is self evident by the fact their are so many different Christian churches.

The real indicator of a Christian or a Christian Church becomes evident in their "fruits" (For every tree is known by his own fruit. Luke 6:44).

I encourage you to observe the "fruits" of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why not be friendly to a large Christian church that has many worthy examples of the "fruits" our Savior taught about.

Jeannie Babb said...

ncultra, nice try, but I am not a Baptist.

Erastus Snow was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He wasn't just some church member with an opinion. I can understand why the LDS church wants to distance itself from some of these church founders, particularly in light of their racism and sexism.

I was just reading how Brigham Young believed that Adam was a god (Michael) who started human population on this planet and later impregnated Mary. Convoluted stuff.

Jeannie Babb Taylor

Anonymous said...

-Jesus only asks that we believe- is the beginning part.

Then repentance as John the Baptist cried out to all.

Followed by the need for Baptism by immersion as Jesus Himself did to set the standard and "fulfill all righteouness"

and finally is getting the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as was all taught in the New Testament.

Anonymous said...

In Jesus own words found in Luke Chapter 24:36-43 we can put to rest any doubts that the risen Lord had a body or that it was male. What Jesus's body was before His Cruxifiction it was again after His Ressurection. Male and tangible.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my HANDS and my FEET, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and DID EAT before them.


I love that He felt the need to point out that His risen body could still EAT!!! Give Him some fish!! Doesn't seem invisible to me if one can eat fish and honeycomb. I look forward to eating in the eternities;)

The Bible can be used any number of different ways to create or back any number of Christian beliefs. Hence even "orthodox" Christian Churches that can't agree.

Our Heavenly Father knew this would happen that's why He sent us another witness of His truths. In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses we can always establish truth. The Book of Mormon nails down the validity of our Risen Savior Jesus Christ. That He has a tangbile, touchable, and approachable body.

The Plan of salvation is greater then you know, it is truly a gift.
Families can live together FOREVER (if they are worthy to do so of course, if one's abusing his family here, they're not going to be granted them there)
If you've been married 60 years and are afraid of losing your spouse. Learn of the Church and let us teach you how you won't lose them. God married Adam and Eve, if God spoke it then Adam and Eve are still married...

satan is at an all time high in his onslaught against people and families. he will not ease up any time soon-drugs,porn, divorce, gambling addictions, adultery, on and on. Why does he work so hard to tear us apart if we're all just going back to a God that's invisible and we will be too? Why would God give us so many rules no sex before marriage, marraige between a man and a woman, fidelity after marraige, be kind to your children, if it wasn't for a wise purpose in Him. I don't believe for one second that we're going to just be Spirits hanging out in Heaven together forever. I'm sorry but that sounds rather boring to me, especially after I've tasted the fruits of having a body and living on a beautiful earth able to do things! The reason I'll want to worship Him through out eternity is that He "restored" me and granted me even more knowledge and abilities that amaze me to no end!

Jesus and Satan were both created by Heavenly Father, satan revolted and was kicked out along with 1/3 of Heavenly Fathers other children-spoken of in the book of Revelation, the great war that happened in Heaven. We were there, we choose the correct side and were granted the chance to come to earth and receive a body. Heavenly Father did the ultimate with satan's betrayal and did not grant him a body! satan isn't somebody that has so much power that he just flared himself into being. Of course he was "created" or he'd be more powerful then Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father is in control, even of what satan's limited power can do to us.

While I'm here I'll clarify whether I think Jesus was married. Personally I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm not bothered by it either way. Who did the Risen savior first appear to? Mary Magdelene weeping at the tomb. Why would she have still been there hours later? Why did He check on her first? Even before He had gone to the Father (note- not before He "became" the Father)or returned to the Apostles He left in Charge.
Would Jesus's mother Mary have allowed any females to see her naked son's body to dress Him for a burial if they hadn't seen it already?

I plead with you, open your hearts and your minds. Be as little children-believe. If I tell my little son when he's 16 he gets to drive a real car he says "COOL!" not how are you going to do it mom, how can it be true, I can't do it, it'll never happen, somebody else told me it can't happen, someone said you didn't know what you're talking about...

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is TRUE!! It is at The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Shout if from the rooftops! IT IS TRUE:)

If anyone has any questions they would like answered privately I will try do my best.

letstalkscripture@gmail.com

I hope everyone has a very Merry Christ centered Christmas-enjoy the Holidays:)

Anonymous said...

Jeannie Babb Taylor, you crack me up. Your post makes no sense, but you probably enjoy(ed) making those bigoted comments.

Paul Belfiglio

P.S. Do you understand the concept of sarcasm and parody?

Jeannie Babb said...

Melanie, you're acting as if Christ's body during the incarnation is the same body Jesus has always had. If this were true there would be no such thing as the "incarnation."

Jesus came into the world as a tiny newborn baby. Do you believe that God is a tiny newborn baby? If not, then you must concede that the body he had while roaming this earth was a new one for Jesus.

I've given numerous scriptures showing that God is spirit -- not flesh. At the incarnation, the timeless invisible Spirit stepped into time, took on a visible corporeal body and became Emmanuel "God with us." That's what we celebrate this Christmas season.

Jeannie Babb Taylor

Jeannie Babb said...

p.s. It would not do my faith any violence if Jesus were married while on earth. But I have studied the issue and I do not see a single shred of evidence for it. It makes for good fiction, though.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeannie,

You're correct, and I agree that "the body he had while roaming this Earth was a new one for Jesus." I do not believe that God is currently a little baby. Nor do I believe in Reincarnation if anyone wonders.

I believe that the son of God-Jesus, was born to an earthly mortal -Mary through an infant male mortal body. He had that body as He grew up and perplexed His mother and stayed behind in Jerusalem astonishing people with His teachings in the temple. He had that body when He began His earthly ministry, healed people, raised the dead, walked on water, and choose His Apostles. He had that mortal body when He took upon Himself the sins of all mankind in the Garden of Gethsemane and bled from every pour in the pre-dawn hours of His cruxcifiction- on a cross at Golgotha, where He took His last earthly breath between two common criminals.

I know that 3 days later He had that body again, only now it had been perfected and was "immortal" but touchable and still of substance.

I know that He left this earth in front of a following on a hill outside of Bethany with that body and He still has that Immortal body to this day. I know that He also showed that body to inhabitants on this American continent because He loves all of His creations, and He knows where the lost tribes of Israel are.

I know that while Jesus was on this earth for 33 years, Heavenly Father was in charge and watching over Him from Heaven. They are 2 separate beings that exist at the same time. Nothing was put on auto-pilot so Jesus could come to earth. Jesus was the son of God as He often referred to Himself. Heavenly Father is God the Father. One in purpose, separate in being. Jesus is still a perfected being, in Heaven waiting for His Father's word to return to this earth and establish His millennial reign.

I love my Savior Jesus Christ. I love that He took all of my stupid sins and mistakes and paid my penalties. I love that Heavenly Father made a statement by placing Jesus into a "Family" and thus reflected the importance of it. He didn't just make Jesus an orphan to fulfill the plan, He gave Him a Family.

May we all enjoy ours today:)

below is an actual "Church" talk should anyone want more then my humble opinions...

Latter-day Saints are sometimes accused of having an antibiblical theology because they believe that God is a glorified being of flesh and bones—not just a spirit essence. Some who write anti-Mormon pamphlets insist that the LDS concept of Deity is contrary to what is recognized as traditional Christian doctrine. In this they are quite correct. The traditional view about the Trinity is well over a thousand years old, and time has a way of hallowing ideas, whether or not they are true.

One of the most demonstrable truths from the Bible is the physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. When Jesus came forth from the tomb, he showed himself to his Apostles. Even they thought him to be a spirit, but he said: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

Then he showed them his hands and feet, and when they were still skeptical, he asked for meat and honeycomb and ate before them. (Luke 24:36–43.) Then they saw he was no apparition.

Thomas was not present at the first appearance to the Twelve, so he remained skeptical. He told the others: “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:24–25.)

One week later, Jesus again appeared to the disciples. This time, Thomas was among them. The Lord greeted them, then spoke to Thomas: “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”

Thomas could only exclaim, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:26–28.) That day he became a special witness of the Lord’s literal resurrection.

After Jesus was resurrected, more than five hundred also saw him and testified of his physical resurrection. (1 Cor. 15:5–8.) The Apostles, too, were witnesses of his ascension into heaven when two angels told them that Jesus would return in like manner as he had ascended. (Acts 1:9–11.)

We also know that at his second coming, Christ will appear with a physical body. John testified that “every eye shall see him.” (Rev. 1:7.) Zechariah prophesied that “his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives” (Zech. 14:4; italics added), and the beleaguered Israelites “shall look upon [him] whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him.” (Zech. 12:10.) And then “one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.” (Zech. 13:6; italics added.)

With such an abundance of biblical testimony from the ancient Apostles and prophets, how did traditional Christianity come to the idea that somehow Jesus’ bodily identity was dissolved into spirit essence? How did the Christian sects come to accept the idea that though three personages comprise the Godhead, they are one immaterial spirit? Certainly the ideas are not apostolic in origin.

The early Apostles took the gospel into a Greco-Roman world that espoused Neoplatonism—a philosophy derived from Plato’s teachings on idealism. One idea that came down from Plato was that matter is essentially evil. (James L. Barker, Apostasy from the Divine Church, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, pp. 229–35.)

As long as Apostles led the Church, they opposed the philosophies of the day. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians is an example of this. Apparently, some who held to the belief that matter was evil were baptized but had difficulty accepting the physical resurrection of Jesus. They reasoned that since Jesus was perfectly good, he could not have a material body. In his letter, Paul addressed the Greek belief in the body’s corruptibility by bearing testimony that a resurrected body, like Christ’s, is incorruptible. (1 Cor. 15:3–8, 12–20, 35–42.)

Likewise the Apostle John asserted in his gospel and epistles that Jesus was a divine being of flesh in mortality to counteract the heresy that he was not or could not have been flesh because matter was evil. (John 1:14; 1 Jn. 1:1–3; 1 Jn. 4:3.)

The dilemma of the church after the first century was how to sustain a unified church without a body of general authorities. By the early second century, the church had gone through three major persecutions by the Roman emperors Nero (a.d. 54–68), Domitian (a.d. 81–96), and Trajan (a.d. 98–117), and apostasy and heresy were rampant. The Apostles were gone—all martyred except for John—and church leaders who had known the Apostles but did not have their apostolic keys, like Papias, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp, were dead.

The defenders of the church in the late second and third century were Christian apologists and scholars, many of whom were trained in Greek philosophy and in rhetoric and logic.

They brought the classical culture of Greece into the church for two reasons: first, to rhetorically and logically “prove” the Christian gospel to a world steeped in Greek culture; second, to make Christianity intellectually respectable. Their efforts were an understandable human reaction to counteract the persecution that the church had suffered for two centuries. But it made the church compatible with the very culture the church had once disdained.

The synthesis of Greek philosophy and the Christian gospel is well documented. H. I. Marrou describes how Origen and others caused the church to embrace Hellenistic culture and ideas. (A History of Education in Antiquity, tr. George Lamb, New York: Mentor Book, 1956, pp. 424–29.) Edwin Hatch, in his definitive work on the subject, wrote that the early Christians’ study of Greek philosophy created a certain “habit of mind”:

“When Christianity came into contact with the society in which that habit of mind existed, it modified, it reformed, it elevated, the ideas which it contained and the motives which stimulated it to action; but in its turn it was itself profoundly modified by the habit of mind of those who accepted it. It was impossible for Greeks, … with an education which penetrated their whole nature, to receive or to retain Christianity in its primitive simplicity.” (The Influence of Greek Ideas on Christianity, New York: Harper & Row, 1957, p. 49.)

As the church entered the third century, many ridiculed Christianity because they regarded it as polytheistic—that is, it had a theology of three Gods: the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. By this time the more sophisticated had rejected polytheistic pagan deities and had become monotheistic, accepting but one God. So the issue for the church was how to make Christian theology accord with respectable opinion.

Tertullian, a lawyer, offered this solution: The true God was composed of immaterial spiritual substance, and though the three personages that comprised the Godhead were distinct, this was only a material manifestation of an invisible God. As for how three persons could be one, it was explained that the persons were legally conceived entities, “just as a corporation is composed of various people though it is not the people.” (T. Edgar Lyon, Apostasy to Restoration, Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1960, p. 113.)

Fusing the ideas of church theologians, such as Irenaeus, Origeu, Tertullian, and Athanasius, the Trinitarian formula of three spirits in one was finally accepted as official doctrine by the council of Nicea in a.d. 325. (Lyon, pp. 144–53; Barker, pp. 249–71.)

The key issue through these early centuries was whether Christians would accept a God who was corporeal and material, or one who was pure spirit. Here Greek philosophy prevailed, with its antipathy to materialism, opposition to polytheism, and revulsion to the idea that God had a body.

The unsurpassed intellectual in Christian history was Augustine. He was the one who thoroughly fused the theology of the New Testament with Platonism. In examining Christian doctrine, Augustine confessed to a strong preconception—a repugnance to the idea that God had a body. (The Confessions, V, x:19–20; VII, 1:1. In Great Books of the Western World, vol. 18, Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1952, pp. 32, 43.) He acknowledged that he had labored on the thesis of the Trinity for fifteen years without “ever reaching a satisfactory conclusion.” (Hugh Nibley, The World and the Prophets, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1954, p. 86.)

Finally he rationalized that if one accepts the Platonic idea that spirit essence is the purest manifestation of reality and that matter is the most corrupt, God must therefore be an immaterial being. He was then able to accept the doctrine of the Trinity. (Confessions, IV, xvi:29, 31; V, x:19–20; VI, iii:4–iv:5; The City of God, VIII, ch. 5–6. In Great Books, vol. 18, pp. 26, 32, 36, 267–69.) As Plato had done before him, Augustine decided that since God is the ultimate good, he cannot be associated with anything material.

Augustine’s personal theology became that of the Roman Empire and remains an influence in historic Christianity to this day. Such is the basis for traditional Christianity’s teaching on the Trinity—a belief described by modern clerics as a mystery.

In view of biblical teachings on the nature of God and the historic development of the concept of the Trinity, we might ask, Which view is more biblically defensible?

As a child reared in a Protestant home and educated in a parochial grammar school, I vividly recall many occasions when teachers would vainly attempt to explain the mystery of the Trinity. We were told that there were three persons, but not three Gods. The three persons were one spiritual substance, so there could not be three separate beings.

One explanation likened the Trinity to water, steam, and ice, which are different formations of the same element. Another likened the Trinity to writing a book. The author starts with an idea, then the idea becomes incarnate when the writer converts the idea to words. Then when others read the words of the book, it has an effect on the reader. The Idea is the Father, the Word is the Son, and the Effect is the Holy Ghost.

It was hard to fathom a Deity of this nature, let alone love him. But even more significant, the great teaching of Paul that we are God’s literal offspring (Acts 17:28–29) is not even taught in traditional Christian theology. Unfortunately, because of this misunderstanding of God’s true nature, millions of our Heavenly Father’s children have failed to understand their true identity.

In contrast to the preponderance of scriptural support for the physical body of the Lord, there is meager evidence in the Bible to support belief in a God who is a spirit essence. The most frequently cited passage is a conversation between Jesus and a Samaritan woman. The Samaritans had a corrupted form of Jewish and heathen worship. The Savior said to the woman:

“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship. …

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:22–24; italics added.)

By revelation, the Prophet Joseph Smith translated verse 24 to read “For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.” (JST, John 4:26.)

The Prophet’s interpretation not only harmonizes with the other passages and episodes in the scriptural records, but it also demonstrates how taking one isolated passage out of context creates false theology. Even without Joseph Smith’s changes, the passage makes sense. One can say that God is a Spirit, just as it can be said, “Man is spirit.” (D&C 93:33.) President Gordon B. Hinckley explained:

“Of course God is a spirit, and so are you, in the combination of spirit and body that makes of you a living being. …

“Each of us is a dual being of spiritual entity and physical entity. All know of the reality of death when the body dies, and each of us also knows that the spirit lives on as an individual entity and that at some time, under the divine plan made possible by the sacrifice of the Son of God, there will be a reunion of spirit and body. Jesus’ declaration that God is a spirit no more denies that he has a body than does the statement that I am a spirit while also having a body.” (Ensign, Nov. 1986, p. 49.)

An important point to remember with regard to doctrinal teachings is that the Lord’s church functions on the basis of two fundamental principles: (1) the testimony of apostolic witnesses, who know by personal experience the reality and truth of the Lord and his teachings; and (2) the testimony of each member, based upon knowledge, faith, and the witness of the Holy Ghost.

A modern prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr., provided the world with an eyewitness testimony of God’s true nature. Concerning a glorious visitation by the Father and the Son, Joseph testified, “I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is my Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (JS—H 1:17.)

Joseph Smith saw a confirmation of what Jesus had impressed upon Philip long ago: “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” (John 14:9.) Jesus was apparently informing his disciples that he and his Father were alike in attributes, in power, and in bodily appearance.

How different from the prevailing beliefs that were propounded from the pulpits at the time of Joseph Smith! The resurrected Jesus declared to the Prophet that those creeds were “abominable,” for so strongly were they riveted to the hearts of men that their hearts were drawn away from their Heavenly Father. (JS—H 1:19; D&C 123:7.)

The greatest contribution of the Prophet Joseph Smith to this modern era is the Book of Mormon, which contains a testimony of the resurrected Christ and his ministry to the people of the Western Hemisphere after his resurrection in Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon records that 2,500 people saw and heard the Savior and testified of his bodily resurrection of flesh and bones.

Compare with the idea of an all-powerful yet immaterial three-in-one spiritual essence these two sentences from Joseph Smith, who was speaking as revelation dictated:

“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.)

“There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure.” (D&C 131:7.)

Living prophets and Apostles today continue to teach of God’s true nature. They testify that Jesus Christ is a living, resurrected being with a body of flesh and bones. How do they know? Like Apostles of old, they are his special witnesses.

With regard to the second principle, each individual may receive confirmation of spiritual truths by the power of the Holy Ghost. As Moroni in the Book of Mormon urges us to do:

“Ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Moro. 10:4.)

On the basis of knowledge prompted by the Holy Ghost, we can know that the nature of God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, as taught by the Bible and as revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, is true. Those who have received their understanding about God from errant traditional Christianity need no longer struggle with that confused and confusing doctrine. The Prophet’s inspired declarations about the Godhead are in total agreement with the biblical evidence that Jesus and the Father have distinct, material bodies.

William O. Nelson, “Is the LDS View of God Consistent with the Bible?,” Ensign, Jul 1987, 56

Foiguy said...

Dear Editor
I found the attack on my faith by Jeannie Babb Taylor in the Walker County Messenger unfair and biased. I would invite you to get out and meet some real members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in your community before you start throwing out pejorative labels, stereotypes and inaccurate conspiracy theories. This is tantamount to hate. Your rhetoric has amazing parallels to what the Nazis said about the Jews before they hauled them off to concentration camps. You make Romney out to be some monster and his ilk somehow less than qualified for a place in American society.


You raise a broader question. Because I believe what I believe I am disqualified from any kind of public service at any level? In her mind, does being a Mormon make me the scum of the earth that you would not allow to participate in any elected office or public debate? I think that's why we don't have a constitutional test.


Your rhetoric isolates, marginalizes and breeds suspicion rather than understanding. It's also discriminatory. It's hard to believe this kind of dialog is still part of the American landscape in 2006. My personal Savior Jesus Christ would not treat anyone this way.


Babb would also fail my beginning news reporting class for biased reporting. Even columnists have an obligation to seek the truth and response from others. Would it be so hard to ask some believers for response rather than parroting the same old anti-Mormon line. While mainstream Christian practice and theology may be more familiar, it’s not fair to use a measuring stick of traditional Christianity to rate Mormon beliefs. Mormons believe the measuring is not calibrated correctly because truth and authority was partially lost or misinterpreted over the thousands of year since the organization of the ancient church. Why does Babb get be the judge of who is Christian or not?


Please see the column I wrote for Editor and Publisher magazine:


http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/shoptalk_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003688296



--
Joel Campbell
Assistant Professor - print journalism
Department of Communications
BRMB 360
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84062

Anonymous said...

Hello,

I would like to say that I realize that some on this blogg may be feeling overwhelmed with information we have shared. As members of the Church we in no way want to make anyone feel that way at all. We realize what we believe is often in stark contrast to the myths that are held about us. We forgive the misinformed.

Historically our Church has been through a lot!! Our founding leaders were constantly under attack. Their homes were taken over or burned to the ground repeatedly, women were raped, children left fatherless, gardens and crops burned and trampled. People from every denomination were very ruthless to the Mormons. At canon and gunpoint in the dead of winter Church members were forced out of their homes as well as one of their most beloved cities- Nauvoo, IL. In the state of Missouri it was completely legal to kill any Mormon on sight no questions asked until it was removed from state record in the 1970's. Hot tar being poured over member's bodies was a favorite way to torture. Yes here in America under the Constitutional protection of Religious Freedom...

Given that history, please forgive us if we seem to take too quickly to the "flight or fight" syndrome. We our bold, and we defend our beliefs because we know dearly the cost it took, even in the shedding of member's blood, to maintain our religion...

In that light I would just like to thank Jeannie Babb Taylor for having written an article that could bring about so much discussion and light to the truth of our convictions. I have completely enjoyed participating in this blogg and conversing over these subjects.


Best wishes to all-Melanie
letstalkscripture@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

If anyone lives near Rexburg, Idaho (or would want to travel before Feb. 3) you are more then welcome to come enter our latest beautiful Temple for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Until our Temples are dedicated by prayer to the Lord, anyone who would like to enter, is invited to do so. Our Temples truly are as beautiful as these photos look only more so in person...


http://www.kpvi.com/Global/story.asp?S=7548126

Dorcas (aka SingingOwl) said...

Once they are dedicated, they are secretive. Does that not speak volumns to you, Melanie?

Thank you for the invitation. I am sure you mean it kindly, and I wish you the best.

Anonymous said...

As a "Temple" Mormon I love the Temples of the Church. Nothing renews my Spirit more, or quicker then to spend time in one of them. When I need a boost to my life, I head to a Temple, and something amazing happens-I come out full of love for humanity again. I want to hug the trash man. I am renewed in knowing that everyone is my brother or sister in Christ and I love everyone:)

I find it comforting that after Jesus had ascended to Heaven, Peter and John still could be found heading off to the Temple (Acts 3:1) Even though the Scriptural account doesn't record "what" they did in the Temple in their day; I don't think it was considered any more secretive than what goes on in ours today-just sacred as well...

Anonymous said...

I find it amusing that the main thrust of Ms. Taylor's argument is based on a flawed understanding about the history of Christianity and the development of the doctrine of the trinity. Ms. Taylor herself admits that this doctrine has been believed by a majority of Christians for 1700 years. If it was a true foundational doctrine of Christianity, shouldn't it have been taught and believed for something closer to 2000 years? Ms. Taylor admits that the doctrine of the trinity was not finalized and did not gain widespread acceptance until 300 years AFTER Jesus died. Jesus did not teach a trinitarian doctrine, nor did his disciples in the New Testament. The fact of the matter is that in the early days of Christianity, the vast majority of Christians were not trinitarians, and conceived as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being separate and distinct entities.

The Council of Nicaea, which adopted the doctrine of the trinity almost did not do so. Most delegates did not want to officially accept a trinitarian doctrine because they would be unable to do so without adopting non-biblical language. Only heavy lobbying by Arius convinced the delegates to adopt non-biblical language to create the doctrine of the trinity (see the wikipedia article on the trinity for more information, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#The_Origin_of_the_Formula ).

Anyone who has studied the development of Christianity will know that trinitarian notions and modern Christian conceptions of God did not enter Christian beliefs until Hellenized Jews and other pagans converted to Christianity. They wanted to incorporate pagan philosophical ideas into Christianity, because the teachings of pagan philosophers were considered to be the highest forms of learning at the time and the most correct statements of truth. (for some summaries of these issues, see the wikipedia articles: "Christianity and Paganism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Paganism and "Hellenic Philosophy and Christianity" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_philosophy_and_Christianity)

The ideas about God being incorporal and present everywhere, etc., were actually ideas about God developed by Plato. These pagans wanted to incorporate their pagan philosophical doctrines into Christianity, and were very successful in doing so, to the point where people like Ms. Taylor hold fast to these pagan doctrines 1700 years later, and accuse those who believe in doctrines MUCH closer to original Christianity (as would be known by anyone who has objectively studied early Christianity) of not being Christians. I got a good chuckle out of your article Ms. Taylor--please study the issues objectively first, before you make silly claims that are manifestly untrue.